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4) Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy(all 5 books in the trilogy) – Douglas Adams
5) Ride the Dark Trail – Louis L’Amour
6) Fahrenheit 451 – Ray Bradbury
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*) A book I hated but think everyone in the world ought to read is 1984 – George Orwell.
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Herb Thiel
Saturday, July 08, 2006
Marriage Definition Amendment Pt II
Thank you to everyone that commented on my post about the marriage definition amendment. I had not planned on doing another post about it anytime soon, but having read these comments I would like to address a couple of points before going on to something else because I believe that what people said was sincere.
I was always told (and taught in public school sociology class) that homosexuals were not distinguishable by any outward features, e.g. if a man talks soft or a woman has a haircut like a man’s that that does not mean they are gay. Homosexuals are just like everyone else and anyone you know and even those you might least expect could be homosexual and you would never know. This is true. In fact, if I were a gay person I would find this latest advertising campaign that shows a dog walking like a cow and mooing, extremely offensive because it’s saying that you can tell by these outward signs what a person is. It is meant to depict, by having a dog saying “moo,” that some people are “just born that way.” But it’s still unnatural. A dog saying “moo” is unnatural and the other dogs in the pack might or might not let it run with them, the normal dogs barking and chasing squirrels and eating trash, not ruminating. This ill-thought advertising campaign was conceived by our former mayor who is now the president of the gay and lesbian society here. She did a lot of stupid things as mayor, too.
Now, why should the rights of the God-fearing Christian majority be infringed by having to subsidize these unnatural unions? Why are the rights of Christians always the first to be thrown out? You are not seeing, aside from the larger problem of the overall moral decay of modern society, that the practical upshot is, in fact, that once you validate marriage as being anything other than one man and one woman, you have to validate all of the other types as well. This is not taking away anyone’s rights. Besides, many rights are taken away from us all the time by merely submitting to the rule of law.
Which leads to why the government has to be involved. The government is already involved in everyone’s day-to-day life. You cannot steal. You cannot murder. You cannot peddle child pornography. These are laws of our land and we live by them every day. You can murder someone, but there is a penalty to pay. Life is sacred, the innocence of children is sacred and marriage should be sacred as well. Go ahead and live in whatever sin you wish, just don’t ask me to condone it or vote that you should be allowed special privileges to do it. I don’t feel sorry that the government doesn’t allow someone to steal my car (as if anyone would steal my car, but that’s another entry). I expect to be protected. 45 states already have definitions of marriage as being a contract between one man and one woman, so really it is representative of the majority of the states. When was Democracy ever “minority rules?”
The last thing is love. I think it will probably shock almost every one of my readers to find out that I believe that gay people can be as much “in love” as straights. Christians, Pseudo-Christians and Christian-Wannabes have allowed love and especially marriage to be cheapened to the point where this conversation is even necessary. The big problem is Christians. The harder-core the Christian, the more at fault. “Umm…Herb, I thought YOU were a hard-core conservative Christian?” I consider myself as such and I don’t think there is enough leadership in the basic Christian community in the area of instruction about marriage. Christians have allowed divorce to become a rampant ill in our society by condoning it. By not teaching, preaching and preparing people for what marriage is supposed to be about you have set them up for failure.
Love is not a twitterpated, giddy feeling of attraction to a person, although that can lead to true love. True love is a decision. It is a conscious, committed, decision that grows stronger and stronger the more it is tested; even when the “twitterpation” has been worn down by dirty diapers at three in the morning, the Bible lets us know that we can set our affections. We can choose who and/or what to love. It is deeper than a feeling. “Oh, I just couldn’t help myself falling in love” is really not true. You felt attracted to that person, maybe by their wit or looks or charm or the way they looked at you, and it led you to want to be closer to them. Of course it is not always a conscious decision; a couple of lonely people are attracted to each other in some way and immediately decide then and there that if that person will have them, they will stay with them through thick and thin, but it is the commitment part that is love, the setting of affection on that one person forever no matter what, not the goosebumps you feel when their hand touches yours. That all works into it of course, but the bottom line is that love is that decision to stay forever. Christians are only allowed to dissolve a marriage in the event of adultery and Jesus even said that that was because of the hardness of an unforgiving heart. Christians have made this teaching worthless by making all manner of frivolous exceptions. While there can be situations where divorce is unavoidable, much of the divorce that goes on in our country could be considered frivolous. For example, a situation where a man (I use the term loosely) sleeps around on his wife and abuses her emotionally is not, in my opinion, frivolous.
That being said, one person can, in fact, set their affections on another and commit to stay with them and be loyal to them for the rest of their life. This does not mean that it is any less of a sin or that I have to condone it. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve or Eve and Louise or Adam and Eve and Steve and Louise. When God made the first man he took a rib from the side of man, not from his head to be above him or his foot to be beneath him, but a rib from the side of him, to create a helper for him (and most men need help from a woman, believe me) to be with him. It was only one rib and even after the fall of man, God did not create another woman for Adam. They were to stay together, “bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.” In our promiscuous society we often forget that a woman and a man are supposed to “save themselves” for marriage and the act of consummation is supposed to bind the two together in the same manner, to become one.
Marriage between one man and one woman forever is what God intended; what is commonly called “The Nuclear Family” is how God created it. Of course Hollyweird has tried to cheapen and mock this teaching by making everything okay and Christians who know nothing about their Bible or even their own religion fall prey to their machinations. The Marriage Definition Amendment is only one step in saving our society from itself. Christians need to re-learn their own teachings, what they are and what they mean.
Remember, the Good Book says, “For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”
Coming next, The Flag Burning Amendment
Posted at 7/8/2006 10:17:12 am by logansackett
 |  |  | J f Z July 16, 2006 03:56 PM PDT
Herb said: "This is not about religion or creating thocracy. Whether you read the first part or not I don't know, but if you do not allow marriage to be defined as one man and one woman then you have no stopping point, because you will soon, maybe not in this generation, but somewhere down the road, have all manner of other people arguing for their marriage du jour, e.g., polygamous marriage and marriage to and with children."
First, I oppose the constitutional amendment approach because it is the last gasp of legal maneuvering by the people who are not happy with the ruling of *certain* courts and legislatures. It's so self-serving to call one court decision "out-of-control" and then turn around and applaud another state court that upholds your viewpoint on this issue.
You argue that without a constitutional definition of marriage, we all go to hell in a handbasket in the future.
Putting aside the state's rights issue for a moment, what if the definition of legal marriage in the U.S. was simply:
A legally binding union between consenting adults?
That seems reasonable. I mean, currently, I could legally marry a 16-year-old girl in some states before I could marry some man. (not that I desire to do either)
That would just be the legal definition. Whether you have a celebration of your decision to marry blessed in some religious venue would be entirely up to you. Obviously, some religions would not 'bless' a gay marriage -- and that's their right not to do so.
I guess my point is this -- there are many good reasons not to so narrowly LEGALLY define marriage as 'one woman and one man' in the social reality of the world in which we live. I am not suggesting that the RELIGIOUS definition of marriage should be altered one tiny bit based upon any religion a person follows.
Isn't it common sense that a devout muslim or christian is not likely to ask to be married to a same sex partner in their house of worship? If a person's religion forbades everything except procreative sexuality, that faithful person is not going to stray from their faith.
No one is asking you to change your religious beliefs based upon the reality of the modern world, but I'm personally against your idea of changing the modern world based upon anyone's particular religious beliefs. |  |
  |  |  | Steph July 13, 2006 10:33 AM PDT
Sorry, Herb. You know where I stand. Society had to be taught that Blacks were humans, not animals. They had to be taught that women had brains to do the "important" work. They had to be taught that factories are no place for children. They learned that genocide is still being practiced all over the globe. The evil being done to homosexuals is shameful, & practiced by so-called religious people. Germany once had a law against homosexuality and all that were uncovered were put to death. Now we just want to kill their civil rights. What will be next? |  |
  |  |  | Penny July 13, 2006 08:53 AM PDT
How can you say this is not about religion, Herb? Every argument you made is based on your religious beliefs.
It is totally about religious beliefs. If you took a poll, I would be willing to bet that 99.9% of people opposed to gay marriage base their opinion on their religious beliefs.
This country was founded because of religious prosecution. What happened to seperation of church & state? What happened to EQUAL rights? I thought that meant equal rights no matter what race, creed, sex, religion or nationality a person was.
You expect to be "protected" ... protected against WHAT? What do you think a gay couple is going to do to you? How are the rights of "God-fearing Christians" being infringed? I don't understand how two people being married, no matter what sex they are, is harmful to you. They aren't asking you to join them. They are not asking for any "special privledge." They are asking no more than any other couple.
Equality.
p.s. I disagree that allowing gay marriage will open the door for NAMBLA. There is a huge difference between a defenseless child and an adult gay person. |  |
  |  |  | jerry July 12, 2006 05:59 PM PDT
No for me to tell you where I stand on this issue, but I will respond anyway.
This will be easiest paragraph by paragraph. First, I completely agree with you here. This is a dumb add campaign. Maybe a better one would be to just show a group of dogs and say one of them is gay. By not telling us which one it implies it is the same as the other dogs.
I don't understand you second paragraph. How are the rights of God-frearing Crhistians harmed by gay marriages? Gays exist, they live in the community, they are not going anywhere. The state endorses gay marriage or not, they are still living among the god-fearing christians.
The third paragraph doesn't make sense to me either. To compare two adults consenting to getting married doesn't equate to the violation of your person or property that the crimes you mention.
Forth paragraph, nothign to argue there. You think there is a lack of leadership. Okay.
Fifth Men who sleep around or abuse thier wives and children are not men. So we agree there too. I think true love usually starts out as teh twitterpatter emotion you describe. More importantly is the work, committement, that part. There are people in a great deal of the world that are products of arranged marriages. They propably don't start out with this feeling but after 50 years of marriage I doubt that you could distinguish thier love from one that started in our society.
I do not believe that god created Adam and Eve in a garden of eden. This is just a story to me, and a lot of people. To argue that I should be bound by the rules of a book that I regard as fiction is ridiculas.
Lastly and most importantly. I do not think our society needs to be saved from itself. I would not return to a period of time in history if I could. At time before now has America been a better symbol of opportunity, and freedom for all. Well maybe under Clinton, if that is what you meant I'll have to concede that point. |  |
  |  |  | scott July 9, 2006 11:07 AM PDT
I agree with you, and more importantly, the Bible, Herb.
I am still aware, of course, as I am sure that you are, that Jesus was himself a radical: Eating and drinking with the sinners of his day. The sins remain much the same, and our response as Christians is still to individuals: To lovingly lead them to an understanding of God's love for them, the extent to which their sin can cause separation, and the path to redemption. Thank God for His grace abounding to all. As a 'Christian' nation (South Africans often claim to be Christians, but very often this is a traditional response rather than a relational one), we also struggle with the desire to have all the freedoms associated with a democracy which are good, and the debauchery which can come from abuses of those free will decisions. Pray for those in government, Herb, as I am sure you do. Theirs is never an easy choice. |  |
  |  |  | Herb July 9, 2006 06:38 AM PDT
This is not about religion or creating thocracy. Whether you read the first part or not I don't know, but if you do not allow marriage to be defined as one man and one woman then you have no stopping point, because you will soon, maybe not in this generation, but somewhere down the road, have all manner of other people arguing for their marriage du jour, e.g., polygamous marriage and marriage to and with children. The Supreme Court of the state of New York determined that the legislature has a legitimate interest and can "rationally" believe that children need both a mother and a father. The Georgia Supreme Court also uphelp the validity of such an amendment which their voters approved by 76%.
No need to worry, though. Senators voted on whether to bring the debate to the and voted against it. CO sen Salazar voted against the discussion while Sen Allard voted to discuss it.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS02E3 |  |
  |  |  | J f Z July 8, 2006 05:20 PM PDT
I oppose a constitutional amendment. While we honor the right and freedom of people to practice their own religion, we don't impose anyone's religious beliefs upon the nation as a whole.
Thus, as compelling and well crafted as your arguments are, they all end up boiling down to your religious beliefs on the issue of gay marriage. Which is fine for you to live your life, but imposing your religious belief system on others is not the American way. It is the way practiced in societies with theocracies and mullahs, not in a nation of pluralistic religious beliefs and civil rights for all its citizens. |  |
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